In The Dock: Goth

(If you're wondering what this is all about, click here.)

This week's subject: Goth

The case for the prosecution (Phill)

Let's get straight to the point here - goth music is rubbish.

Now is that a crime? Well when you've heard that terrible introduction of 'Bela Lugosi's Dead' by Bauhaus as many times as I have, the answer is yes.

As a musical genre, goth surely must have less quality songs than any other. I could count them on the fingers of one hand (if I'd lost four fingers in a nasty industrial accident) - Yes that's right - ONE. 'The Temple Of Love' by the Sisters Of Mercy. I'm not counting 'This Corrosion' by the same band, as it is essentially the same song, plus it was produced by Meatloaf collaborator Jim Steinman - so that disqualifies it.

Goth music has no innovation or humour. When a musician such as Marilyn Manson attempts to use elements of goth and mix it with both of these qualities, he is instantly disowned by goths everywhere.

The music is an irrelevance, but that alone is not a case for prosecution. Aside from the problem of goth music itself - let's talk about the other problem with goth music - goths!

They are generally the most miserable bunch of people I've ever met (with a couple of obvious exceptions). Goths are gullible too. Get any band who use minor chords, stick a bit of make-up on and back-comb your hair and goths lap it up. Take a look at Danielle Dax - rubbish. I once went on an evening out with a group of goths and half of them refused to acknowledge me due to the fact I wasn’t wearing eyeliner.


OK let's get into details. I would argue that great bands such as The Birthday Party, Joy Division are not goth - they are post-punk. Yes there are a few crossovers - but is goth about the music anyway? The answer is no and that's the problem.

The whole goth fashion thing is a mystery to me, the colour black, the cider and blackcurrant, changing your name from Kevin to something stupid like Midnight.

And how about the dancing? Gothic dancing is the most anti-social and miserable dancing ever, not that you would be able to see anyone anyway due to the smoke machines used on goth club dancefloors.

For most genres of music the leading bands of the scene are great bands - think reggae (Bob Marley), punk (The Clash), rockney (Chas 'n' Dave). But for goth we've got the Sisters, The Mission and Bauhaus. Two joke bands and a bunch of talentless, miserable idiots from Northampton.

Historically goth's place in the Colosseum of musical genres will be a mere footnote with a mention of novelty clothing, winklepickers and bad make-up.

As such, I recommend a lengthy period behind bars for goth music, as well as the imposition of on the spot fines for anyone either wearing a Bauhaus T-shirt or listening to them on headphones on the bus.

The case for the defence (James)

Let’s start by being clear about what I am NOT defending. I am not defending lank-haired adolescents. I am not defending Marilyn Manson or any of his ilk. I don’t have anything specifically against these, but to my mind, they do not signify goth.

So, here lies the problem: what, exactly, am I defending? We ran into a similar problem a couple of weeks ago with R’n’B, and yet I think we have a bigger problem here. If we are going to be purist about things: goth refers to a small number of bands that played in a couple of small clubs in the early to mid-80s. Yet we all know that goth is far more than that. And here lies my first argument:

Once you start rolling out the boundaries as to what goth is, the boundaries just keep on a-rolling. As an off-shoot of the post-punk scene it quickly lost all sense of fixed definition. There are some bands that we can obviously include: Siouxsie, Cure, Sisters, Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend and the Cocteau Twins. Now, let’s be clear about this, less than half of these bands saw themselves as being goth at the time. The Banshees were credited as being the first big goth band, and yet she hated the term. But in the mid-80s, when I was a goth, these were the bands that defined what gothic music was all about. The boundaries roll out further than this, though. Joy Division, Birthday Party and Nick Cave, Swans, Throbbing Gristle, Lydia Lunch and Skinny Puppy all have their places in the goth pantheon, despite not being strictly goth at all – but you weren’t a fully fledged goth in the 80s without having an LP by them. A survey of these artists will not give a cohesive style. Assuming that we are not being purist about this: we are forced to acknowledge that this (non) genre, covers an awful lot of ground – from heavy rock through industrial through indie through pop through world music.

Secondly, if we look at the long term influences of goth, we find that the same is true. Aside from the obvious nu-metal and darkwave connections, gothic elements can be found in Americana (16 Horsepower), alt folk (Current 93), indie pop (play Franz Ferdinand’s first LP back to back with The Sisters of Mercy’s Adrenochrome and you’ll see what I mean). My argument here is that since goth is not a precisely discernable genre, ripping it from the map would inadvertently tear a considerable hole from the world of alternative and underground music. A hole that few would be happy to welcome – including Phill.

Thirdly, the image. Here I think that we are on steadier ground, since there is more of a discernable something to consider. Now again, I want to qualify my argument: the image that we are talking about is not necessarily the same as what we see wandering our city streets aimlessly on a Saturday afternoon. What I am discussing here is the range of carefully constructed images – especially fashioned in goth’s early days. There are three strands to this argument:

(a) People put time and effort into their hair, make-up and clothes. OK, sometimes the look is bizarre or jarring. But, despite my carefully constructed just-rolled-out-of-bed look, I really appreciate when someone takes that kind of effort. Back when I was a goth, I spent hours on my look. If someone has the inclination to use their image to say something about themselves (even if it says more about the amount of time they have to say it), I think it deserves credit.

(b) Often, especially on women (I have to be honest), the goth image looks pretty damned good. There is a reason that so many women have at least flirted with the goth image and that is precisely because it is striking, and provides elements of mystery and allure. When done properly and intentionally, goths look sexy.

(c) Goth clubs are safe places to experiment with sexual imagery. Goths tend to be accepting of whatever and whoever, and there is a freedom to express oneself in all sorts of ways without risking abuse or ridicule.

To sum up:

1. Goth music is difficult to pin down to a precise, neat genre.
2. Unless we are going after specific bands, we risk doing serious damage to the alternative music scene.
3. Goths can be sexy.
4. R’n’B set a devastating precedent to any future genre prosecution.

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Thanks to Phill and James. Now it's over to you. Guilty or innocent - YOU decide. The comments box is open and awaiting your comments - you've got until Friday to make up your mind...